M16, The worst gun in PR?

[rogue leader]

After a particularly annoying run of games last night playing as the US, not to mention months of similar frustration, I have come to the conclusion that the much loved M16 is the worst gun in the game.

I had a few occasions where 1 or 2 bursts were fired point blank at the enemy's chest. No lag and no chance of bullets missing, yet the guy with the AK or G3 critically wounded me with 1 or 2 bullets. How weak is the M16?

Burst fire is useless beyond about 15m and has an irregular spray pattern. Sometimes the first 2 bullets are close together and sometimes the second 2 are. The 2nd and 3rd bullet also hit left and sometimes right of the first meaning that you are only guarunteed of a single hit. I tested this on a wall while in my own server.

9 times out of 10 an automatic will take down the M16 weilding soldier at medium to close range. Do the autos have more forgiving recoil/spray patterns? Maybe. Do the other guns have higher caliber bullets? G3 yes, Chinese rifle?.

As people have said, the M16's strength is it's long range accuracy. Thanks to the inclusion of scopes to the Chinese army this advantage is nulified. Don't ask me why but I can get better long range accuracy with the MEC G3 too.

Its getting to the point that the only reason I want to play as US is the chance to fly a littlebird. Ground combat has become that frustrating.

[daveee]

I've never had a problem with it.

As crap as BF2's hit boxes are, the M16 is fantastic. Probably one of my favourite weapons (apart from USMC/Brit Spec Ops guns).

Also it will be getting either 5x or 6x zoom in 0.6 even though it doesn't have a scope on it apparently.

[Sandy_Beret]

zoom should help

[VisOne]

I don't share your opinion even in the slightest I find the m16 a formidable weapon if your so annoyed with the m16 than use the m4 moonraker laser.

[daveee]

I don't share your opinion even in the slightest I find the m16 a formidable weapon if your so annoyed with the m16 than use the m4 moonraker laser.

There is nothing wrong with the M4. It's got weak recoil and you can group a full magazine on full auto at long distances in close proximity to each other ;)

[Chickenhawk]

I've never had a problem with it.

As crap as BF2's hit boxes are, the M16 is fantastic. Probably one of my favourite weapons (apart from USMC/Brit Spec Ops guns).

Also it will be getting either 5x or 6x zoom in 0.6 even though it doesn't have a scope on it apparently.

4x, but no scope is moddeled. That comes in 0.7

Dont quote me but i think the Chinese rifle is 2 or 3x and the G3 is 3x as well

[VisOne]

There is nothing wrong with the M4. It's got weak recoil and you can group a full magazine on full auto at long distances in close proximity to each other ;)

Didn't say there was anything wrong with it I just dislike the abuse/unwarranted praise of it because its the only 'automatic' weapon on the US side.

[Adams_BJ]

I have to agree, that's why I always go spec-ops or support or some of the other limited kits when on USMC

[Chickenhawk]

I dont agree personally, I leave it on single shot and aim for the head. Alternativly, have it on 3 shot burst and drag it down as you fire, it clusters them quite close together.

[ThePhotoshop]

I too hate the M16. However - it's three-round burst is better than the Chinese QBZ three-round burst. But that's not saying much.

It's not that i haven't learned to use the weapon, it's just that I much prefer having full-auto available and clearer ironsights.

[80 Russians]

I like the M16, it's a headshot machine.

Personally I have never really noticed that the iron sights are that much of a disadvantage over ACOG sights. What resolution do you all play at? I can imagine that at 1024x768 it'd get pretty muddy...

[ThePhotoshop]

Yup. 1024. No AA.

[Lolo]

M16 is a shredding rifle in PR. it's the only gun I will back myself to outshoot a marksman.

[Baker65]

M16 sounds better than any and all other weps

[Chickenhawk]

its not the be all end all of weapons but I'll back this statement

M16 is a shredding rifle in PR. it's the only gun I will back myself to outshoot a marksman.




Photo, try turning AA on, It will clear the sights up a lot and then ye shall see the light :P

[ThePhotoshop]

I only get 30 FPS as it is. AA will literally kill me.

[daveee]

I avoid headshots like the plague.

Be damned if im gonna let their dead camera view follow me around so they can let their squad mates know exactly where I am.

[rogue leader]

The G3 sounds and feels like its firing cannon balls, by comparison the M16 sounds like an air rifle firing needles.

In my experience the more powerful G3 requires 2 body shots at most. The M16 takes 3. In terms of normal combat situations that 1 bullet makes a big difference. In medium range combat most people are going to aim at the chest unless the opponent goes prone.

In point blank situations I never have 'what the bleep' moments with the G3. Occasionally with the Brit and Chinese rifle, almost always with the M16.

Lolo wrote:
it's the only gun I will back myself to outshoot a marksman

Are you kidding? The Chinese scoped rifle is far superior. It gives you the zoom required to see the marksman and the scope is dead accurate. Head shots are a piece of cake with that gun. The Marksman kit is almost redundant on the Chinese side, particularly when facing the US.

[bishos30]

I know where your coming from Rogue. I'm no top marksman but I definitely consider myself "decent" when it comes to shooting and I'd take the G3 over the M16 any day. Close quarters I have no probs with the burst shot on the M16 but full auto at any distance with the MEC or Chinese rifle wins down for me every day of the week.

Strangely, my accuracy with the M16 increases dramatically while standing or crouching. But with other rifles I'm belly down like a snake for most of the time.

[80 Russians]

Funny thing is that the M16 can kill with 1 to 3 shots and has a 30 round mag. The G3 can kill in 1-2 and has a lower rate of fire, is less accurate and only a 20 round mag clip.

In the end it's all academic cuz the AK kicks all their asses :twisted:

[Baker65]

yeah the AK rocks

I avoid headshots like the plague.

Be damned if im gonna let their dead camera view follow me around so they can let their squad mates know exactly where I am.
I was under the impression this rule worked the same way it does in nilla?
You kill a bloke within 100ft (or whateva it is) and the cam will follow, anything over, and the cam doesnt...

[Lolo]

Lolo wrote:
it's the only gun I will back myself to outshoot a marksman

Are you kidding? The Chinese scoped rifle is far superior. It gives you the zoom required to see the marksman and the scope is dead accurate. Head shots are a piece of cake with that gun. The Marksman kit is almost redundant on the Chinese side, particularly when facing the US.

ah, yes, I forgot about that rifle, good point.

[daveee]

yeah the AK rocks

I avoid headshots like the plague.

Be damned if im gonna let their dead camera view follow me around so they can let their squad mates know exactly where I am.
I was under the impression this rule worked the same way it does in nilla?
You kill a bloke within 100ft (or whateva it is) and the cam will follow, anything over, and the cam doesnt...

I've no idea, im sure people have nailed me at over 100ft and the camera has still followed them. Who knows :?

[80 Russians]

I think that the death-cam was neutered in earlier PR releases but some problems had caused it to be re-enabled for 0.5 (I think...)

[Chickenhawk]

I think that the death-cam was neutered in earlier PR releases but some problems had caused it to be re-enabled for 0.5 (I think...)

My beta senses are tingling. Someone needs to check this out over the next couple of days. I would do it myself but i dont have .605b

[daveee]

I think its hardcoded into the BF2 engine.

[Captain_Wolf]

Personally I think the M16, G3, L85, and Type 95 are all excellently balanced with the exception of scopes missing form the M16 and G3. I find that on single fire I always hit what I am aiming for no matter the gun. I also find that 3 rnd burst is more than enough for close range work.

Then again I never have these "WTF that was bulls@#$!!!" moments that others seem to have all the time. Maybe because I have a monster machine and good internet connection, or I might just be that good, lol. :D

M16/L85/M4: Low recoil, decent power, 30 rnd mag.
Type 95: Med - low recoil, Slightly above avg power, 30 rnd mag.
G3/AK: High recoil, high power, 20/30 rnd mag.
Pistols: Low recoil, decent power, small mag ~15 rnds.

FYI: The Type 95 does 10% more damage than 5.56 weapons (M16)

EDIT: check out the new Chinese Type 03 for all you chinese AK whores http://world.guns.ru/assault/as80-e.htm

[Lucid Nightmare]

Come next patch, m-16 has overall recoil decreased. It's very easy to get a nice grouping with it.

Also, m-16 = horrible gun in reality.

:wink:

[icehollowpoint]

Personally , the M16 i can't agree or totally disagree , i've had times where it won't stop **** and other times where it's been my friend at long distances and in urban combat. Im usually a very good shot with it , but comparing it to the G3? For me the G3 pisses all over it , the HK sights are just excellent for me and the better dropping power just makes it a dream come true.

Just to clear something up while im here , a few weeks ago people were complaining about the HK53 (MEC spec ops gun) vs the M4 , saying the M4 was overpowered (and better accuracy) because both use the same round (5.56x45). The reason is that the M4 in BF2 seems to be using a 14-inch barrel whereas the HK53 seems to be using a 10-inch barrel , hence why the Devs may have ruled in favour of the M4A1 . This being said , i've never had any problems ingame with the HK53 and i think it's an awesome gun when used right.

[Captain_Wolf]

Come next patch, m-16 has overall recoil decreased. It's very easy to get a nice grouping with it.

Also, m-16 = horrible gun in reality.

F88 all the way baby :D

[bishos30]

This being said , i've never had any problems ingame with the HK53 and i think it's an awesome gun when used right.

Too true. Also has my vote as best sounding gun in game.

[Captain_Wolf]

Thats because it is based on an MP5 and they are one of the sweetest sounding guns around :D :D

[VisOne]

Hmmm its the HK53A3 I'm not sure its 'based' on the mp5 considering the mp5 is infact simply a scaled down version of the HK53 or to put it more precisely a even further scaled down version of the g3 which is ofcourse based on the Mp-44.

No I think it would be fair to say the MP5 and HK53 are more like twins than anything else.

[Captain_Wolf]

Lol, ok technically...
The MP5 was developed with the HK53 as it is the practically same gun but they were experimenting with different calibers etc. Therefore they have overlapping development cycles the MP5 starting a little after the HK53 project started. And the HK53 is based on the G3, which is based on the CETME rifle, which is based on the Stg. 45, which is in turn based on the Stg. 44 (or MP44 only called this because Hitler was a retard and he opposed automatic rifle design MP standing for MachinenPistole or sub-machine gun. Stg or SturmGevehr means Assault rifle BTW which is what it was changed to in production once Hitler saw how awesome it was).

So yes you are correct they are more like twins my mistake, next time I will choose my words better. I didn't know there were so many other gun nuts around lol.

Mmmmm guns...

[Ablack77]

Bloody gun fanatics :P
BTW I like the m16

[LuKing99]

I think the M16 is alright but the lack of full auto has let me down a few times and the lack of power compared to G3/AK-47 (i always seem to be US lol) if they had an AR-10 (AR-10 is a 7.62mm x 51 NATO round M16) it would be interesting but the US chose the AR-15 over it.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

The G3 sounds and feels like its firing cannon balls, by comparison the M16 sounds like an air rifle firing needles.



Funnily enough, it feels like that when you fire them in real life.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Also, m-16 = horrible gun in reality.



Ever fired one? The M-16 is an absolutely fantastic weapons system and it is a testament that a rifle with it's origins in the 60]s as the AR-15 is still in very active use second only to the AK-47 and only then because is cheap and easily copied.

[Chickenhawk]

Also, m-16 = horrible gun in reality.



Ever fired one? The M-16 is an absolutely fantastic weapons system and it is a testament that a rifle with it's origins in the 60]s as the AR-15 is still in very active use second only to the AK-47 and only then because is cheap and easily copied.

I think he was reffering more to the reliablity and maintainance required for them. They are more accurate than the AK47, that is a fact, but they are more fragile in terms of dirt and stuff.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

The M-16 is a tough rifle, funny how the jamming it was known for was solved decades ago but the Viet Nam rumours still haunt it.

[Chickenhawk]

The M-16 is a tough rifle, funny how the jamming it was known for was solved decades ago but the Viet Nam rumours still haunt it.

Regardless, the AK47 is known for requiring bugger-all maintainance. I assume the M16 is like any other rifle now given that troops are actually issued with a cleaning kit for them :roll:

[Captain_Wolf]

The AK47 and the M16 are on opposite sides of the worlds arms doctrines.
The more expensive M16 is designed to be light, accurate, and fires a smaller yet much higher velocity round ~975 m/s. The cheap mass produced AK is designed to be reliable, cheap, and fires a larger round at lower velocity ~710 m/s. The argument of M16 vs AK47 is one against quality vs quantity. So which would you rather?


M16 rifles, issued to US troops in the Vietnam, severely jammed in combat, resulting in numerous casualties. There were some causes for malfunction. First of all, during the introduction of the new rifle and its ammunition into the service, US Army replaced originally specified Dupont IMR powder with standard ball powder, used in 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. The ball powder produced much more fouling, that quickly jammed the actions of the M16 unless the gun was cleared well and often. This combined with the fact that the initial M16 rifles were promoted by the Colt as "low maintenance", so, for the sake of economy, no cleaning supplies were procured for new M16 rifles, and no weapon care training was conducted fro the troops. As a result, soldiers did not knew how to clean their rifles properly, and had no provisions for cleaning, and things soon turned bad. To add to the trouble, the ball powders also had a different pressure curve, so they produced higher pressures at the gas port, giving the rise to the rate of fire, and, thus, decreasing accuracy and increasing parts wear.

The M16 is like a fine sword and the AK47 like a big bad battleaxe.

[Fallen.]

In rl assault rifles like the m16/m4 family are not designed to compete with battle rifles like the G3 or AK variants. They are apples and oranges.
However in my experience (ADF) the m16a1 for inexperianced soldiers was a difficult weapon to maintain in an operational environment.
Design changes in later variants didn't address its inherent delicate nature in harsh environments.
Others agree.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,131317,00.ht ml?ESRC=marine.nl
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

The M16/M4 are powerful weapons in the right hands but there are a lot better around.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

In rl assault rifles like the m16/m4 family are not designed to compete with battle rifles like the G3 or AK variants. They are apples and oranges.
However in my experience (ADF) the m16a1 for inexperianced soldiers was a difficult weapon to maintain in an operational environment.
Design changes in later variants didn't address its inherent delicate nature in harsh environments.
Others agree.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,131317,00.ht ml?ESRC=marine.nl
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

The M16/M4 are powerful weapons in the right hands but there are a lot better around.

There sure are better options but as in all things in relation to government, what will it cost?

It takes dead bodies before the military gets upgrades. :roll:

Take the Sea King as an example in Canada, where we operate the buggers is particularily harsh and should have been replaced ages ago but we keep em and continue crashing them.

Damn bean counters need to have some balls cut off, not like they need them anyway.......

[VisOne]

Damn bean counters need to have some balls cut off, not like they need them anyway.......

But where would all the little bean counters come from ?

[Adams_BJ]

Damn bean counters need to have some balls cut off, not like they need them anyway.......

But where would all the little bean counters come from ?

LOL that made my day!

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

That made me laugh and nearly got me busted surfing at work...........

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Where exactly do the bullets go on the iron sights? Is it right at the tip or say a mm up?

[rogue leader]

Smokejumper wrote:
Where exactly do the bullets go on the iron sights? Is it right at the tip or say a mm up?

When you switch the M16 to burst fire the 3 bullets exit the barrel then make a sharp 90 degree turn for that sphincter in the sky. It must be a black hole or something.

When using the M16 you see a lot more of that sky anus too.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Lol, it's funny how many people can't adjust to the three round burst.

I personally love the 3 rounds burst and no scope people constantly as the bullet spread isn't so bad during a spray and pray thanks to the minor delay between burst when I button mash the trigger.

Edit//

Seriously though, where should I put someones head in relation to the tip of the foresight in single shot? :?:

[rogue leader]

Just the other night I fired 2 bursts or 6 bullets into someone at 1 or 2 metres . I see the blood splatters and my first bullet is at stomach level. They then turn around and shoot me in 1 or 2 bullets. I am so close that all bullets MUST BE making contact.

I have had too many situations like this and have seen and heard so many other players complaints that I think something is wrong with the coding.

People have mentioned the bad hit boxes in BF2 but the M16 seems to be the gun that sticks out for its weakness and poor hit detection on burst.

If you don't believe me as to how bad the M16 is just check the US kdr at the end of your next few games. 99% of US players will have 1:1 kdr or worse. The other team will have a very high percentage of positive kdr.


To answer your question Smokejumper, I believe you should have your iron sight on the enemy's chin to get a headshot.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Cool, just the answer I need. I'll try it tonight so maybe you could do me a favour and hold still a second if your on the other team to let me experiment. :wink:

[ThePhotoshop]

If they're at extremely long range, where their head may only be three pixels or so, the very top pixel of the ironsight must be covering their head, so that you can't fully see the head you're shooting at.

[rogue leader]

Maybe its not the M16 but the hit detection that is causing all my problems. The M16 just highlights the problem because you are more aware of where your bullets are going.

Was playing Al Basrah last night as insurgents and there were two incidents that left me wondering:

1. Shot a squad member in the leg with my AK at close range. According to him it didn't hurt a bit.

2. Went up against two US soldiers, all of us prone. I am positive I was hit twice but the damage wasn't enough to cause any coughing or fuzziness.

[dandred]

You've probably seen this before but anyway here it is again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPTwGSrjsgo&mode=related&search=


Poor hit box detection on the BF2 engine

[rogue leader]

I hadn't seen that actually, thanks! There was a linked vid that claimed that the straifing hit detection error is due to DICE programing a 100ms ping buffer.

Apparently what this means is if your ping is 100 you will hit what you aim at. If your ping is lower you need to aim behind the straifing enemy. If your ping is higher you have to aim ahead of the straifing enemy. If your ping is above or below 100 and you aim at the enemy it will appear to hit them but they will take no damage.

This goes a long way to explaining why people dont die when I shoot them with the M16. It doesn't explain whats happening in stationary prone encounters though.

There was another vid where a guy altered something in the command console to make his camera guided chopper missles more accurate.

Lastly, the hit boxes dont seem to correspond to people climbing ladders either. Last night I was M4ing people as they climbed onto a roof. Several times I had to wait until they had left the ladder before my bullets actually hurt them.

[daveee]

That sounds completely retarded :S

[mobius]

When im using the M16 its ****, but in someone elses hands its a god dam sniper :?: . Plus the 3 burst really sucks, love my pay 'n' spray :).

[Buddha28]

I'm pretty decent with all weapons in PR but I think the British rifle is much better than the M16. The burst fire is good but full auto is much better. When I play, about 90% of the time I have my rifle set on full auto even for long range engagements. I can still shot single shots even if it is set on full auto.

[Chickenhawk]

Is everyone having problems?? I preffer the M16, even in CQC. There's plenty of times when I've strafed a person in full auto and missed with all my bullets but with the M16 the Burst fire does something for me, it slows my thinking enough that i actually aim despite the urge to spray and pray.

On a side note, I think the M16 fires quicker than the G3 anyway so a quick double click sends 6 bullets headed their way in less than a second, the G3 manages only about 3 bullets a second. Remember, Quantity has a Quality of its own

[Lucid Nightmare]

True, but I'd rather be shooting cannon balls over BB pellets any day.
:wink:

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

I agree with Chickenhawk 100%

I love the M-16 rifles, soon they get an ELCAN, well the American equivalent anyway.

[Captain_Wolf]

Yep give me an M16 anyday. Who needs full auto when you can double tap an enemy and they go down?

[iUDEX_nCr]

wth? teh M16 is an awesome weapon. It is deadly accurate! even for me... who is reknown for being unable to hit the backside of a bus!

as much as I hate to admit it... it is probably my choice weapon.

As far as 0.6 goes... eh... not exactly the most exciting thing for me.

[Aphex_Fusion]

wth? teh M16 is an awesome weapon. It is deadly accurate! even for me... who is reknown for being unable to hit the backside of a bus!

as much as I hate to admit it... it is probably my choice weapon.

As far as 0.6 goes... eh... not exactly the most exciting thing for me.

IIRC, you weren't keen on 0.5 either, now look at you. Give it time, it'll be more tactical and less 'rush rush rush'

I love the M16, the sound alone gives me a hard on.

[iUDEX_nCr]

wth? teh M16 is an awesome weapon. It is deadly accurate! even for me... who is reknown for being unable to hit the backside of a bus!

as much as I hate to admit it... it is probably my choice weapon.

As far as 0.6 goes... eh... not exactly the most exciting thing for me.

IIRC, you weren't keen on 0.5 either, now look at you. Give it time, it'll be more tactical and less 'rush rush rush'

I love the M16, the sound alone gives me a hard on.

more tactical??? NOOOO. I like PR for it's maturity and players more than anything else. One thing that turns me off is how a single shot and that's pretty much all over for your in the firefight (you have to retreat etc etc), unless you have medics nearby, and there are almost always never any medics. Hence why I play a medic. I'd much rather be a rifleman, or combat engineer.

Honestly, I still love vBF2, yes... please don't kill me.. I just hate the immaturity of players I have to deal with.

Honestly, 0.5 slows the game down enough for it to be enjoyable and tactical, but all this building and medics can't even heal themselves? hmm, I think they should say if your vision is blurry you cannot heal yourself. I mean, if you've run out of dressing to stop the bleeding ok, but like "eh? I am bleeding!!! but no I can't use my medic kit... I have to wait for ANOTHER medic with the same medic kit, to heal me." If you want to stop people going medics just so they heal themselves, then I'm all for it! there are too many useless medics out there... so yeah, maybe limit it's usage. Or make it easier to use bandages... I dont' know about youguys, but I have this phenomenon of phantom bandages, where I throw a bandage and it shakes and wiggles into the open or into a wall... and I either have to throw (waste) another one, or stray into open land. Sorry, ranting I know.

I think the main reason I'm not looking forward to 0.6 is that it sounds all too much like a completely different game. I think 0.5 with a few tweaks would be fine. This is a Game, I just want to have fun. As long as I'm having fun I'm all good. If realism is what you want, I don't think 0.6 will make it any more real. From what I read, and I may well be mistaken, they make the Grenadier a limited kit... that will curb noob tubing, but is that real? I am all for lowering the amount of noob tubing, but it is up to the player's maturity to know when to use a underslung and when not to keep game flowing and fun (for all parties).

No doubt, I will adapt to the changes. But just no looking forward to it. But that is JUST me =D don't let me stop you from enjoying it.

[Boher]

more tactical??? NOOOO. ...
and there are almost always never any medics. Hence why I play a medic. I'd much rather be a rifleman, or combat engineer...Honestly, I still love vBF2, yes... please don't kill me.. I just hate the immaturity of players I have to deal with....
Honestly, 0.5 slows the game down enough for it to be enjoyable and tactical, but all this building and medics can't even heal themselves? hmm, I think they should say if your vision is blurry ....Or make it easier to use bandages...
I dont' know about youguys, but I have this phenomenon of phantom bandages, where I throw a bandage and it shakes and wiggles into the open or into a wall... and I either have to throw (waste) another one, or stray into open land. Sorry, ranting I know...
I think the main reason I'm not looking forward to 0.6 is that it sounds all too much like a completely different game.

That's odd, I think medics are very effective in PR. In vanilla, they rush in for a dive'n'revive, then piss off, whilst in PR they effectively use cover to make sure you both survive.
As for never having any medics around, you probably are joining the wrong squads. An intelligent infantry squad leader would ask for two medics in this game. If your SL hasn't asked for this, try suggesting it.

As for the upcoming change so medics can no longer heal themselves, it's to prevent them from pulling off superhero moves, like jumping off buildings and fixing themselves up on the run. I play medic very often and I admit to doing these things, but I'm glad the devs are making the change - it will make the game less arcadey.

If you are bleeding, there are no medics around and you are out of field dressings, don't be afraid to ask other players for their dressings. We've all done this before, and it's the reason why SLs have so many bandages.

The field dressing dissappearing into the floor is just a visual bug - it still heals you if you keep still and crouch above it.

0.6 will make the game more tactical with the introduction of commander assets - that's why we're looking forward to it. If team spawns and AA guns can be placed where the commander pleases, the gameplay will be more dynamic. This is positive progress from the game design of vanilla, where winning often comes down to memorizing the gameplay logic.

[workingrobbie]

The field dressing dissappearing into the floor is just a visual bug - it still heals you if you keep still and crouch above it.


To push this thread a little off topic, I find disappearing bandages more then a visual bug - I've had times when bleeding to death when the bandages either are swallowed up by the ground, all fall through the fall of the building I'm on to the floor below (and sometimes that floor is inaccessable) only for me to bleed to death. It's damn annoying.
But yeah...M16 still sucks :D

[VisOne]

The field dressing disappearing into the floor is just a visual bug - it still heals you if you keep still and crouch above it.


To push this thread a little off topic, I find disappearing bandages more then a visual bug - I've had times when bleeding to death when the bandages either are swallowed up by the ground, all fall through the fall of the building I'm on to the floor below (and sometimes that floor is inaccessible) only for me to bleed to death. It's damn annoying.
But yeah...M16 still sucks :D

For bandages to work you need to be UNDER 30% health ofcourse there's no way to really tell when that is so its best to hold off dropping bandages to the very last minute.

[iUDEX_nCr]

That's odd, I think medics are very effective in PR. In vanilla, they rush in for a dive'n'revive, then piss off, whilst in PR they effectively use cover to make sure you both survive.

Hey mate, agree with all you've said. Just to clear up any misconceptions... I still think medics are very effective, sorry if what I wrote sounded otherwise.

Even in vanilla I don't use the rush in, dolphin dive, heal etc or whatever they do thing. I play it like I think it should be played. I don't like dolphin divers, so I don't do it myself. I tend to fare pretty well without resorting to those moves. But agreed, if the exploits are there people will use them.

As for the super human feats... in reality, men do jump off buildings =D
well... according to ex-SAS and current service members I know. But regardless this is a game.. =P

I'm sure I'll change my tone when 0.6 is released, but for now am I allowed to be cynical? hehe...

haha, asking for other people's bandages? I've never had to do that as a medic... btw, I've been in a squad with you a few times and died from the lack of medical attention. Next time I will ask for bandages.

VisOne: is there any other way to tell whether or not you are at 30%? I usually drop one when I am bleeding and yelping in pain. I couldn't find information in the newbie section corresponding health level and reaction.

Cheers
i

[rogue leader]

I started this thread believing that there was something wrong with the M16. I still think there is something wrong with it since I can get almost effortless head shots with other guns like the PLA and MEC rifles while at the same time shooting people 2 or 3 times with the m16 and still not killing them.

I do think that the M16 highlights more than any other gun the totally ****ty hit detection of the BF2 engine.

Uneven terrain really screws things up as does the top of a ladder. Just watch someone POP up onto a roof as they leave the ladder. Who knows what the hit boxes look like in these situations.

One time I was playing compton and shot an enemy in the head (blood splatter was there) and the guy didnt even feel a thing. I know because by an odd coincidence it turned out to be my brother.

Hit detection is so bad that my HEAVY AT rocket flew right through the centre of an advancing APC without exploding on Ejod the other night. WTF :evil:

[daveee]

Unfortunately its just something we have to put up with. :(

[workingrobbie]

Hit detection is so bad that my HEAVY AT rocket flew right through the centre of an advancing APC without exploding on Ejod the other night. WTF :evil:

Hehe...reminds me of a situation I had last night at Greasy Mullet.

For the record - AA rockets go through APCs.

For the first time I requested an AA kit since the choppers were being annoying. Typically, as soon as I get the AA, all the choppers disappear :P There was a stationary enemy APC happily sitting there though, so I thought I'd give the AA a go and see what damage it does to it. I was about 10m away and shot it in the rear, with a slight angle. The rocket whizzed through the apc to fly though the other side and go off into the sunset.
Another squad member also happened to have the other AA after he saw the size of mine ;) and after witnessing the temporal rocket, crawled UNDER the APC and shot up, so there was no way he could miss. The same thing happened.
So AA rockets can't hit anything it seems <.< No wonder no one uses them.

As far as the M16 goes, it's not only hit detection. A three round burst in the torso does nothing to MEC soldiers it seems.

[Lucid Nightmare]

For bandages to work you need to be UNDER 30% health ofcourse there's no way to really tell when that is so its best to hold off dropping bandages to the very last minute.

Where are you getting this information from? In .5, they heal a small amount of health (10-15%) regardless of when you drop them, as far as I can tell, it's the same in .6
You start to bleed when you're at 30% or less health....

[Wokeye]

I commonly use medkits to heal after being shot but when not bleeding. After all, you cant take 'em with ya!

[bishos30]

I have a new found love for the M16 after playing lately. I've even managed to get good at hitting people with a 3 round burst from a distance.

On the medic side - I usually hate having 2 medics in my squad. I don't know why having 2 medics became the norm for a squad template. One is enough for most purposes in my opinion. WAY too often I have two medics healing the same guy and just asking to be nadded or one medic off doing nothing. If anyone wants to hit up a squad with only 1 medic and save the other spot for something usefull I'd put my hand up to be dedicated medic. Come v0.6 I don't think my view will change I'll just need my riflemen to make sure the medic is full on his bandages always.

[iUDEX_nCr]

I have a new found love for the M16 after playing lately. I've even managed to get good at hitting people with a 3 round burst from a distance.

On the medic side - I usually hate having 2 medics in my squad. I don't know why having 2 medics became the norm for a squad template. One is enough for most purposes in my opinion. WAY too often I have two medics healing the same guy and just asking to be nadded or one medic off doing nothing. If anyone wants to hit up a squad with only 1 medic and save the other spot for something usefull I'd put my hand up to be dedicated medic. Come v0.6 I don't think my view will change I'll just need my riflemen to make sure the medic is full on his bandages always.


I agree that all you need is one DEDICATED medic. However, as a medic I can do quite a lot of damage. A second medic give you just that much more flexibility. SL, 2xmedics, 3xrifleman/combat engineers/light AT... works just fine... we were running around with 1x medic and the remainder combat engineers and it worked just fine...cos we were all killing machines with the M16. I swear, all it takes is a few patiently placed single shots.

All too often I would be healing someone and another medic will sit next to me healing the same person. On a bad day i feel like shooting this said medic and reviving him later...maybe. But seriously, if you are indeed a medic and want to be helpful keep an eye out for enemies while the other medic is healing. Even if two bags heal faster, all you need is one nade or a sharpshooter with a M16 (just to keep it on topic, but it's TRUE).

Also... if you can continue to fill up on bandages then I've no problems with the medic changes in 0.6 =D

For all those who are having trouble with the M16, my advice would be to use singleshot as your default. I only switch to triple shot when in tight areas, like buildings or in alleys. From a distance all you need is a couple shots. Most of the time just 1 shot. Maybe practice in single player, perhaps you are using the ironsight incorrectly?

EDIT: from experience, maybe someone else will have a different view, I use the M16 as if there was NO bullet drop.

[Captain_Wolf]

The reason I usually insist my squad has 2 medics is because I plain don't trust most people in PR and 2 medics doubles the chance there will be a competent medic around when we need one.

Eg. When your medic dies usually no one will grab his kit to heal the medic, some medics seem to have an aversion to healing people or they only heal themselves and don't try to help other players, and most people don't stay medic so you always find that one second you have a medic, and the next you still have a full squad but the retards all have spec ops kits or some other retarded kit choice, etc, etc.

I'd love to be able to rely on only one medic. But then again that is only if the proposed 2nd medic doesn't take a supposedly uber kit (spec-ops/grenadier) and be a retard instead.

[bishos30]

The reason I usually insist my squad has 2 medics is because I plain don't trust most people in PR and 2 medics doubles the chance there will be a competent medic around when we need one.

Exactly. I hate having 2 but always need to ask for them. Such a dilemma!

[rogue leader]

I know how much people love this topic, especially Chickenhawk. So I will give this dead horse one more beating.

I stole a US m14 DMR (marksman kit) on the locked server ejod round last night and had a jolly time 1 shot killing and surpressing all those poor US soldiers from the safety of my hotel roof. As many of you know I am of the view that the fewer bullets it takes to stop the enemy the better.

My knowledge of weapons, bullet calibre etc. is very limited but the quick bit of research I did suggests that the US M14 marksman rifle uses the same calibre bullet as the MEC G3, ie. 7.62mm.

Perhaps the round used in the M14 has more gunpower giving it a higher velocity and therefore more stopping power, i dont know. If it doesn't, then why does it take 2 G3 bullets but only 1 M14 bullet to critically wound someone?

By the way I dont recall the US winning one single round on server 2 last night and practically all of the US KDRs were negative or 1:1.

[daveee]

I had tonnes of fun with the M16 last night, except on Al Fallujah.

[Chickenhawk]

I stole a US m14 DMR (marksman kit) on the locked server ejod round last night and had a jolly time 1 shot killing and surpressing all those poor US soldiers from the safety of my hotel roof. As many of you know I am of the view that the fewer bullets it takes to stop the enemy the better.

My knowledge of weapons, bullet calibre etc. is very limited but the quick bit of research I did suggests that the US M14 marksman rifle uses the same calibre bullet as the MEC G3, ie. 7.62mm.

Perhaps the round used in the M14 has more gunpower giving it a higher velocity and therefore more stopping power, i dont know. If it doesn't, then why does it take 2 G3 bullets but only 1 M14 bullet to critically wound someone?


It may be the same calibre but the characteristics of the weapon are almost certainly different. The M14 has a longer barrel than the AK47 and G3 leading to a higher muzzle velocity. Also a contributing factor would be the gunpowder in the actual cartridge. I dont know if these are different in the game but in RL, the M14 has a much finer grain than the G3, leading to a smoother burn and, as a result, an increased velocity of the bullet.

From Newtonian physics, we know that F=ma. Assuming that the M14 round is a higher velocity and the G3 round is the same weight as the M14; The M14 requires a higher negative acceleration (a) to bring the bullet to a standstill. This higher acceleration results in a higher force on the body it hits. This higher force results in a larger temporary hollow* in the flesh if it hits a body, causing more damage.

By the previous argument, it may be possible to argue that the M16 does as much damage as a G3, however, the characteristics of a bullet once they enter a body are very different for the 7.62 and 5.56mm rounds.

The 7.62 tends to create a large temporary hollow and shockwave in the body, rupturing organs and destroying anything in its path. The penetration of a 7.62 is typically less than a 5.56.

A 5.56 on the other hand will penetrate, and then start tumbling. Its temporary hollow is reasonably small but the forces on the bullet while tumbling, normally cause the bullet to pull itself apart creating shards of metal throughout the body, all capable of causing internal bleeding. The 5.56 round creates a shockwave and temporary hollow smaller than that of the 7.62 and doesn't cause as much damage instantaneously but to remove the shards of metal requires much more surgery than a 7.62 does because there are pieces all over the place. These pieces all cut into organs like no tomorrow.

In short, its like comparing a laser (5.56, M16) to a sledgehammer (7.62, M14/G3). Both will do damage, its the way in which they cause damage that lowers the "killing power" in game. A 5.56 may not kill instantly but if you leave it alone, you aint gonna live and the process to remove the bullet isn't easy because of all the little bits. The 7.62 may kill instantly because it can literally cause your heart to rupture and stop beating because of its momentum but if you survive, the surgery required isn't as intense as the penetration isn't as deep.

That clear it up Rouge?? :D
Alex

*A temporary hollow is the hollow caused in the flesh almost immediatly after impact with the body. If you ever watch a bullet hitting a pig in slow motion, its the ballooning effect as the bullet strikes.

[Bammo]

Oh my. Guys, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

The reason the G3 does less damage than the M14 is, (ready for this?), because the game developers wanted better balance between the weapons.

PR weapons are just like vanilla weapons - they bear no resemblance to RL whatsoever.

And, FWIW, the muzzle velocity generated by an ADI specificaiton 7.62x51 through a G3, L1A1, M14 are all pretty much identical. The few fps difference at 400m makes no practical difference at all. The velocity of the 7.62x39 (AK series) is, of course, signficantly different.

[workingrobbie]

Gun Speak! I've read soooo many different opinions, theories and general BS on the reality mod forums about the firepower of different guns - and no one agrees. You'd think it'd be simple process to agree, but weapon damage seems to have something to do with the position of the moon relative to Uranus considering the space/time of the orbit of Xena.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Bullets put holes in stuff wha haa!

[workingrobbie]

Bullets put holes in stuff wha haa! Unless it's an M-16 bullet ;)

[rogue leader]

Bammo wrote:
The reason the G3 does less damage than the M14 is, (ready for this?), because the game developers wanted better balance between the weapons.

PR weapons are just like vanilla weapons - they bear no resemblance to RL whatsoever.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. And along that line of reasoning the Devs made the M16 as weak as a bitch slap (and most US maps extremely unbalanced) as a politcal statement against Dubbya's Team America World Police government.

PS: Even the Devs themselves cant seem to agree on how powerful these guns should be based on the changes we see in each new release of the game.

0.3 the m16 could kill in 1 or 2 shots.
0.4 the support weapons had kickback that sent your gun vertical after about 4 bullets, even when prone.
0.5 the m16 is outfitted with rubber bullets in an attempt to counter balance the negative pr associated with the abu graib scandal.

[Chickenhawk]

Oh my. Guys, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I was working off memory so my statements about the different muzzle velocities are probably wrong but my points about bullet tumble ect. are true and are supported by multiple studies.

[VisOne]

Well with ver 6.0 around the corner we might close this thread soon so if you have any more kicks to give the dead dog get them in soon. I still stand to my usual statement theres nothing wrong with the M16 theres just plenty wrong with BF2.

[iUDEX_nCr]

hmm... even if the M16 were given rubber bullets, I find no problems killing with that rifle in game at all.

I still rack up plenty of kills. Just aim for the head everytime. Can't go wrong.

[rogue leader]

Except when those head shots fail to register due to BF2's crappy engine or whatever it is that does it. As I stated somewhere else, I saw a friendly get shot 3 times in the head and shoulders with an M16 and he just stood up and ran away with little or no injury.

For me its reached the point where I will make 1 of 3 decisions:

1. Use the US spec ops kit or a tank to give me a chance of getting a positive KDR and thus contribute to the team.
2. Quit whenever I am placed on the US side
3. Regretfully give up the game unless 0.6 balances weaponry and maps

[iUDEX_nCr]

hmm... I will admit that the netcode with BF2 is a bit crappy, but it's hasn't gotten to the point for me to want to stop playing. And if it's the netcode, then it's not the M16, but all weapons.

perhaps it's your internet or computer? or maybe you have too high an expectation.

just chill out and have fun.

also, a positive K:D ratio is only a stat. It's all a relative thing I think. As long as overall the team is winning then it's ok.

I have gotten through games with very little killing (as an entire team) and still won. This was just due to superior suppression and communication with the commander, so we could avoid a firefight as much as possible. This is not a rare occurence either.

I do die a lot though in heavy firefight games.

[daveee]

Except when those head shots fail to register due to BF2's crappy engine or whatever it is that does it. As I stated somewhere else, I saw a friendly get shot 3 times in the head and shoulders with an M16 and he just stood up and ran away with little or no injury.

For me its reached the point where I will make 1 of 3 decisions:

1. Use the US spec ops kit or a tank to give me a chance of getting a positive KDR and thus contribute to the team.
2. Quit whenever I am placed on the US side
3. Regretfully give up the game unless 0.6 balances weaponry and maps

You just need to adjust your settings to compensate for your lag :)

[rogue leader]

Will reduce my settings and see what happens daveee. Thanks for the suggestion. I am pretty sure that the incident I was talking about had little to do with my settings but hopefully I will see an improvement.

To iUDEX,

Suppression is good (if the enemy cares enough to take cover) but I dont see how a team can win if their combined KDR is less than their opponent's (excluding unbalanced maps). Winning is based on tickets and each ticket represents a life. The only way to alter this is with ticket bleed and on a balanced map this only occurs when the majority of the flags are in one team's hands. To capture and defend these flags is going to involve a lot of killing 99% of the time.

I have seen individuals with horrible KDR on top of the ladder at the end of a balanced map but never an entire winning team with negative KDR.

Points dont win games on a balanced map, positive KDRs do.

[iUDEX_nCr]

ok, I agree with you. :thumbsup:

[rogue leader]

I just tested the gameplay with my graphics set on Low rather than a custom Mid range set. I also changed my screen resolution from 800x600 to 1280x1024. I still have to test with 100% view distance because on the standard Low setting it is only 75%. At one point on Jabal I was being shot at in my LB by an invisible Vodnik that was beyond my view distance.

Assuming it wasn't just a lucky streak the new settings did make a huge difference. With my M16 I managed to kill about 7 people in one life, all with a single burst or a shot to the head. It was like my gun had been blessed.

The game may not look as flashy on Low but I'll happily endure that for the sake of longer life and more kills.

[daveee]

Try these settings in the console


SettingsManager.floa tSet GSDefaultLatencyComp ensation 0.050000
SettingsManager.U32S et GSInterpolationTime 100

0.05000 is for an average 50ms ping

Change it to suit what you generally sit around.

[Bahlye]

[quote="Bammo"]Oh my. Guys, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

The reason the G3 does less damage than the M14 is, (ready for this?), because the game developers wanted better balance between the weapons.(bammo)

PR weapons are just like vanilla weapons - they bear no resemblance to RL whatsoever. (bammo)

You are right on that bammo
I believe you have little bit of practical experience with firearms ??? :)

(whoops firemans?? o m g )

[Bammo]

You are right on that bammo
I believe you have little bit of practical experience with firemans ??? :)

Ummm...only once when I was at college - OH MY GOD HOW DID YOU KNOW? That bastard said the video was only for his personal use... :lol:

But yes, I have used and shot just about everything that walked or crawled with the .223 and .308 rounds. I used to have a G3 back in the good old days but have never fired the M14. The new SOCOM Mk23 looks like the ducks guts though - basically a Eugene Stoner inspired design that is all the rage over at 4RAR and SASR at the moment.

(Check out Aussie Defender Magazine for piccies...)

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

One thing that is certainly inaccurate is that the M-16 has almost zero kick. Feels like shooting a .22 target rifle.

[Bahlye]

(i can't believe i put firemans...lol-something in my subconscious is having thoughts i don't want to know about) :oops:

[Lucid Nightmare]

Except when those head shots fail to register due to BF2's crappy engine or whatever it is that does it. As I stated somewhere else, I saw a friendly get shot 3 times in the head and shoulders with an M16 and he just stood up and ran away with little or no injury.

For me its reached the point where I will make 1 of 3 decisions:

1. Use the US spec ops kit or a tank to give me a chance of getting a positive KDR and thus contribute to the team.
2. Quit whenever I am placed on the US side
3. Regretfully give up the game unless 0.6 balances weaponry and maps

God no. U.S tank is the worst. The one shot kill area's on that thing are huge!

I just tested the gameplay with my graphics set on Low rather than a custom Mid range set. I also changed my screen resolution from 800x600 to 1280x1024. I still have to test with 100% view distance because on the standard Low setting it is only 75%. At one point on Jabal I was being shot at in my LB by an invisible Vodnik that was beyond my view distance.

Assuming it wasn't just a lucky streak the new settings did make a huge difference. With my M16 I managed to kill about 7 people in one life, all with a single burst or a shot to the head. It was like my gun had been blessed.

The game may not look as flashy on Low but I'll happily endure that for the sake of longer life and more kills.

Make sure your geometry is on high, you will be able to see further.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

(i can't believe i put firemans...lol-something in my subconscious is having thoughts i don't want to know about) :oops:


fruity bastard :shock:

[VisOne]

Ohh well the new patch is out and true to my word its time to close this thread, don't mind if it gets reopened in a few days once we find something to have a reasonable bitch session about in the new patch.

Thanks for your time and pent up anger this game is over. :wink: