Upgrade: new GFX card+case/x-fi or replace core system

[Wokeye]

Looking to splash about $600 on my computer, figure I've got two options within budget:
- get an 8800gts 320mb to replace my 7800gtx ($400) + either get a case that will last the ages (P182 $200) or X-fi fatal1ty ($200)
or
- replace my core system (3700+ AMD socket 939 + 2gig DDR500 + mobo) with a new shiny intel one (Q6600/E6750 + 2gb DDR2 1066 + P35 mobo) ($600)

I would not want to spend more on a gfx card for the money.

Trying to get in a position to play the new games due out soon (eg Crysis, Bioshock, PR v0.7 etc) with minimal upgrading later.

Too many options...looking for ideas. Which do you reckon is a better upgrade?

[daveee]

7800GTX is still a pretty good card.

You can get 8800GTS' for around $360~ or so..

Save up and do both the Q6600 and GTS. :)

[Wokeye]

:x $1000 bucks...very...hard. ..to..save..

I gotta add $20-30 to each for postage. Dubvegas has no MSY/umart etc :wink:

[daveee]

Wont be $20 postage per item.

If you factor in selling your old gear (could prob get $300 ish hopefully?) it wont cost all that much.

[Fallen.]

Do the core upgrade now and start saving for the gfx card for nov/dec Crysis release.
7800 is good enough for current games your cpu is a bit slow though

[Tubby]

Get a new AMD Athlon AM2 6000+ for $245 from auspcmarket.com.au, you can get it for $215 from MSY but as your in dubbo auspcmarket is the next best thing.
This thing will thrash a stock Q6600 in just about all applications.
and with DDR2 RAM at about $100 for 2gb and a good motherboard for under $200 your under budget and over performance.

[daveee]

http://www.tomshardware.com /2007/07/16/cpu_charts_2007/page14.html#prey

Gaming benchmarks for C2Q, C2D, and AMD's offerings.

C2D are miles ahead.

[Kindros]

:x $1000 bucks...very...hard. ..to..save..

I gotta add $20-30 to each for postage. Dubvegas has no MSY/umart etc :wink:

Join Overclockers, most of their sponsors have cheap hardware and usually very cheap delivery or free delivery.
I know my current system I got free NBD delivery. Bought it from Nintek. But there are many others which will give you free delivery on orders over $500 anyway.

[Porridge]

Ok tips on building a system. Obviously it's a gamers rig.

Go For the P180 for starters and save your cash, theres virtually no difference, but the price.
2GB of Cosair ram @ 800Mhz or low on cash stick with 533Mhz
Now If you go for 800Mhz then go for Q6600. Respectively with 533Mhz go for E7650. Although going for 1066Mhz would be like paying $200 for a nano second. So don't bother, just go for what you need/require.

Now at some places the E7650 is more expensive then the E6600, then go with the E6600 obviously. Sometimes its the other way around.

Now with the graphics card the best thing to do is get an Factory Overclocked 8800GTS 640MB, these things kick ass, because they run as just as fast as a 8800GTX gen 1 card!!! for half the price, bargain. Go gor Evga or Leadtek as they do good on O/C.

For the mobo go
ASUS P5N32-E SLI M/board - nForce 680i SLI, 1333MHz FSB, Dual Channel DDR2-800, 2x PCI Express x16, SATA II RAID, Dual Gigabit LAN, 8-Ch Audio, ATX

It's still the flag ship and best all rounder motherboard for a relative good price out there. Or again strap for cash try the.
Gigabyte GA-P35-DQ6 M/b - P35, 1333MHz FSB, Dual DDR2-800, Dual PCI Express x16, SATA II RAID, Giga LAN, 8Ch, ATX

both good MB but the Asus is better quality in some aspects. But to the average consumer not worth mentioning.

So
E7650 $265
P5n32 $318
Corsair 5-5-5 PC2-6400 Twin2X XMS 2GB DDR2 Kit (2x1GB) DDR2-800Mhz, TWIN2X2048-6400 $185
Roughly $768
Price are from random shops, I'll let you find the cheapest places in your area.

I havent put much time or thought into this, but then again I do get paid allot to design these on a weekly basis. So I'd take the advice.
Anyone want to rip on my comments feel free as I love debating about what hardware's good and whats crap.

Personally upgrading is a hole bunch of hoax and as commercialised as Christmas ie "SLI"

Save the cash and upgrade the Core System with a new GC at once. As you can never predict the computer market. Plus AMD have revealed the "Phenom" core or something like that to rival the Duo and Quads Intel have. No benchmarking tests as of yet. So fingers crossed its when you upgrade your system :P

For a gaming Rig don't upgraded you Core system separately from your graphics card. It's like buying a chassis for a car, then replacing the crappy engine with a better one, only the chassis can't handle the new tech and power given by the engine.

So then the chassis slows down the god like engine. Just doesn't work. End up with a "patch worked" PC, this applies to gaming rigs as you should consider a GC as a core part of the system, for a workstation PC its a whole different ball game.

Hope that helps.

[daveee]

Unless you're using high resolutions there is no need to go above the 320MB GTS.

ie if you have a 17 or 19" LCD you'll be stuck at 1280x1024 where the extra 320mb will not do anything.

Paying for a factory OC'd card is a waste of money being that all of the GTS/GTX boards are exactly the same reference boards from 1-2 different factories, the only thing you will find is they might have slightly different coolers and in some rare cases different ram.

[daveee]

Also while the graphics card is the one of the key components just upgrading that aspect of the PC isn't a complete waste.

You can spend more money on that component as a band aid to your problem that will also be able to go into your next upgrade/system - while its a short term fix, it will still give you a few more (up to 6) months out of a nearly outdated PC.

Example being my own PC. x2 3800+ with a 7800GT, upgraded to a 8800GTS and overclocked the CPU a bit and I have a decent system that will play ANY game that is currently on the shelves.

Sure it wont play them all super fast, but 90% of them it will. In which case it is the CPU being held back. Upgrade to a 4400+ (good luck to me finding one in this socket, but lets talk for arguments sake :P) and OC that a little more and I have a 3ghz dual core with a 8800GTS...not too shabby for a bandaid solution.


I also just spilt a hot cup of tea on my keyboard and found out it has holes in the bottom to drain the liquid out. This leads me to believe its a somewhat waterproof keyboard and I can pour water over it to get the milk out....lol

[Wokeye]

Thanks for the tips all. I've been doing some research myself and came up with this list of core system stuff:
- 2gb RAM generic (samsung chip) 8500 DDR2 $118
- Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3 ($176) 1333FSB
- e6750 (229) 1333FSB or Q6600 (310) 1066 FSB

Total (523 or 604)

Whatya reckon? I know the ram is a bit risky but Im not an uber overclocker so wont take full advantage of high end ram anyway.

[daveee]

Unless you plan to OC then super high quality-low latency ram isn't a necessity.

As with quad core processors, they aren't all that flash hot for current games...but later down the track (a year or so) they will be much much more mainstream and will be able to be taken advantage of.

If you look at the link I posted, the current games perform a bit better with dual core CPU's.

[Porridge]

Davee you are right on some points but your thinking too much present. You'll need the 320Mb of a 17/19inch LCD with DX10, as it utilises all of it.
Vista and DX10 being a part of Vista is theorised on a CPU running at idle say 20%, it wasting 80%. Same with everything else, so in the awesome DX10 games.

Quoting myself from our Hellfish forums.
"if anything DX9 will become old as soon as more games run on DX10 as running some demos on my PC, playing PR seems "old".

I've got an FPS, the entire map is destructible. Whats even cooler is wood breaks like wood and metal bends like metal. Sand acts like sand. Not some coloured indestructible floor that makes a sound like sand.
Heres some ideas. if you didn't believe me then hope these change your mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7aPvedU7cI&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjWEUsqABoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQp3ds-9bkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSsUUB-ykyc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ERMhPecIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U27zbb9rdLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCTDlzhpMEY
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_worldinconflic t_downloads.html

I'm telling you that is pretty awesome stuff. Whats amasing is you don't have to configure settings or do "automatic" performance tests. All this is dont dynamically in game! So if the system predicts lag it will adjust settings accordingly or take some RAM if its free. With the advent of 16GB RAM motherboards graphic designers have the ability to go mental.

You graphics card is evolving to what will become a realism chip. Were physics, lighting and everything under the sun will be dynamically made.
I mean growing grass while your playing??? thats just over the top.
All though the god like sun rays are awesome along with no more crappy 2d shrubs and crap rendered smoke. Very Happy

If you ask me COD4 should be in DX10, it not just graphics but computer AI as well.

Also say good bye to repeating terrain. Each tree is individual bark, each LEAF is unique. Once more if i took a picture of a leaf and then reloaded the game went back to the same leaf it would still be the same leaf as before. Although each one is completely random. Same thing applies to every static object in the game. From windows to dirt roads. Plus this uniqueness doesn't effect system performance. This also applies to say a Tank or dynamic object in the game. So every Hummer in BF2 would be rendered differently. Isn't that something to be impressed by?

In DX10 their will be a Starwars game coming out soon. The clones and enemies are given a fully developed human nervous and muscle system. This allows them to be shot and respond accordingly. So if you shot an enemy they wont be temporarily paused mimicking them receiving a wound. Say if you shot them in the foot, they will remove they foot from the area you shot and if they got injured they would go to grab the wound. If they got hit then that muscle will be disabled accordingly. To put things into perspective that troop has a FULLY developed MUSCLE SYSTEM and NERVOUS. If thats not the coolest thing I've ever heard in graphics card processing then I don't know what it.

To add the icing on the cake so to say, the AI also responds to it dynamic environment, it will no if a wall has been blown up. Say your on a platform shot two troops and they fell of the edge, if one caught a beam, the other troop falling WILL attempt to grab hold of the other troops leg. When he does the beam thats holding them will respond like metal and bend under the weight. The troops will know this and scream like girls every time the metal buckles. The other troop holding on to the beam will then attempt to throw the other of his leg to free himself. And so he can climb back up.

Having DX10 benefits the whole system, the CPU and therefore the entire game. The only thing stopping it is people reluctance and their fear of Vista causing problems. To finish, Roo's PC kept crashing because of running Vista on a DX9 card and for not updating DX9 on installation. Also I got PR working on Vista because I found out what was wrong Very Happy

If anything it should be a disappointment that COD4 isn't on DX10"

So getting a 320MB would be a waste when DX10 games come out. Although it would save money but its wise to go with the 640MB as the 320MB "dampens" the effect of the G80 chipset and if you google reviews on it you'll find 9/10 say save the money to get the GTX 768MB. I'm going one step further saying save the cash like you are and get the 640MB without sacrificing the performance.

As for factory Overclocking, it does matter what manufacturers it comes from. If I went on you ideology I'd be out of cash. I know for a fact that out of eight 8800GTS O/C, 2 of them where Inno3d both with caught fire in the first 10min of usage. What Important is the heat sink design and the layout of the card. For example. Hitech Radeon cards run noisy when you buy factory O/C cards from them as they use generic fans for the heat sinks.

Wokeye, be safe and go for the E6750 save the cash. The Quad core is only beneficial for a few game which I can count using the fingers of one of my hands. One of which is supreme commander. Use that money for the graphics card or save it. Using a Quad core would bottle neck the system a tad using that RAM and motherboard. The two extra cores would be pointless.

One last point, you spend more money if your a person who upgrades, it's cheaper to buy a whole new system that works in Sync. it foolish to upgrade in parts. But they are exceptions. Which I cba telling about as I've gone on long enough. Tell me how it works out and post a 3d mark score, if you can, please :)

[daveee]

I typed heaps and realised it was pointless. We can discuss this forever and ever and ever and we'll still have to agree to disagree.

Basically do what is best for you are the current time, and the foreseeable future. Don't plan too far ahead as you have no idea what is coming. We're not talking paying off a house here, we're talking silicon and other junk.

Driver improvements in the last month for 8xxx series cards has made massive leaps for the 8800GTS 320. For anything above 1280x1024 yes you will need more memory - go with the 640 if your budget allows. But for next 6-8months unless you plan on buying every new game that comes out I wouldn't bother with the 640 as a 320 will do you just fine at lower resolutions for games like PR.

If you want to play Crysis when it comes out, you're going to need more than an 8800 as they aren't that crap hot when it comes to DX10 anyway. New technology + new software is like buying a series 1 commodore as a car..don't ever do it. They bring out a series 2 for a reason ;)

[Fallen.]

Probably a good question at this point is what do you currently play and what are you definatly going to when its out.
This might help in our "advice" and you purchases.
i.e. SupCom currently doesnt need anything above a 7800gtx but will benifit from multi cores. Crysis will need dx10. Rage will play better with more onboard gfx mem etc.
Porridge is right in saying get gfx card as core parts generally.
However in your case youve said saving a large sum is hard (your not alone there) so buy mb cpu mem now and soon 2-3 months buy your gfx card. Its not ideal but it gets around the "ive got to much money in the bank must buy new shinny thing" sindrome.

[NavyMedic85]

I found saving to be near impossible. So I opened an account with a certain bank that a scottish comedian plugs on TV, and because they automatically debit my bank account a certain amount on payday I don't miss the money, and because it doesnt have ATM access I don't spend the money in there on impulse. Plus they have a very good interest rate (which for me has yielded ~ $8 in 2 months. W00t).

Anyway. You could do that. Or you could do what you're inner sailor wants to do and blow it all on one fantastic night on the town.[/i]

[Tubby]

http://www.tomshardware.com /2007/07/16/cpu_charts_2007/page14.html#prey

Gaming benchmarks for C2Q, C2D, and AMD's offerings.

C2D are miles ahead.

mmmm..Thats surprising. I haven't seen that much difference in other bench marks. ie 3dMark05 and 06......the AM2 6000+ is somewhere near the E6700 at nearly half the cost (before the recent price drops anyway)

And why in the world would you want 1066mhz RAM anyway?

667 will run very comfortably with a Q6600 at stock speeds.

Q6600 = 2.4ghz or a 1066mhz divided by 4 = FSB of 267mhz
267 mhz with a multiplier of 9 gets you your 2.4ghz
Your effective RAM speed is 267 * 2 = 534mhz

So your DDR2 667mhz will romp it in..
effectively you will have to o'clock your CPU to 3ghz before you reach your RAM's quoted 667mhz rating.

From what I understand you can lower the multiplier on these chips which will change these calculations but just run the thing on std settings

[Wokeye]

Hmmm...so is it right to say that:
stock RAM speed on 1333FSB = 333Mhz * 2 = 666mhz so you've gotta push your FSB up to reach higher speeds, which means tweaking your multi for the CPU freq.

Also I was under the impression that if you bought higher speed ram (eg 800/1066/1333 vs 533 you could possibly run it at the slower not-overclocked speeds at better timings (eg CAS3/4) anyway?

[Tubby]

Hmmm...so is it right to say that:
stock RAM speed on 1333FSB = 333Mhz * 2 = 666mhz so you've gotta push your FSB up to reach higher speeds, which means tweaking your multi for the CPU freq.

Also I was under the impression that if you bought higher speed ram (eg 800/1066/1333 vs 533 you could possibly run it at the slower not-overclocked speeds at better timings (eg CAS3/4) anyway?

You can either push your CPU Multiplier higher or your FSB higher or or both if you like. The problem is that most CPU's have a locked multiplier except for engineering samples or a few of the latest Intel CPUs you are able to have either 7,8 or 9 as your multiplier. So once you multiplier is at 9 your only left with pushing the FSB higher to increase your clock speeds.
But seriously, forget about o/clocking, it serves no real purpose except bragging rights and substitute for those with small penises.

Your correct about the better timings on RAM, but again, just buy the best you can afford, leave it at stock settings and play all the games you without fear of a CTD or BSOD.

The point about the RAM I was trying to make was the extra money that you were going to spend on 'faster' RAM would be better spent on a better PSU, CPU, grafix card or else where.


There's going to be a million and one opinions on what to get but in the end it's up to you and what ever you get will be out dated in 3 months flat.

[Wokeye]

I agree with you Tubby, but I can get 2gb generic (samsung) 1066 speed ram for $118...thats about the same as generic 533 speed. So cost is not an issue really. Why settle for less? :wink:

I'm going to have to sell my body to fund all this stuff. Dammit. Maybe the dubbo zoo needs a human exhibit. As long as they have power and the net, I'll be OK. Free medical (by vets) too.

[Porridge]

3 months flat is a little harsh and I have my own view of "out dated" and that is for me when your PC is unable to play any of the latest games at medium. So far the best PC I've built for 1.9k is going onto 2 years :D so 3 months, is roughly right but not very practicable.

As for RAm speeds you are right, but thats only regarding the CPU. It doesn't take into account other components that use RAM. Like I was saying about DX10, you'll need the extra RAM speed if your graphics card decides to chop into your MB ram. Else you'll see the CPU utilisation of RAM bandwidth will start getting cut into. Thats why I like going with 800Mhz yes, it is a bit much using those calcs, but it also allows for errors, special features on some motherboards and other parts that utilise the RAM on occasion.

Hence why I said if you have the cash go for the 800Mhz if not fall back to the 667Mhz/533Mhz. As both would still suffice.

Having said that getting 4GB of RAM for any Windows OS is pointless. Because Windows is unable to utilise this plentiful RAM effectively. So what it does is it ignores the 4th stick and just throws it at other components in the PC. This of course uses FSB and at time can take a fair bit of the bandwidth. It's not uncommon to see PC's with 3GIGs of RAM beating exact same setups with 4GIG's.

So 2GIGs of RAM (maybe 3) on a FSB of 1333Mhz/1066. Is the sweet spot.
I've pretty much covered everything in the setup I've mentioned above. All of what you guys have mentioned thus far is been taken care of as well as allot of other things.

[Tubby]

I agree with you Tubby, but I can get 2gb generic (samsung) 1066 speed ram for $118...thats about the same as generic 533 speed. So cost is not an issue really. Why settle for less? :wink:

I'm going to have to sell my body to fund all this stuff. Dammit. Maybe the dubbo zoo needs a human exhibit. As long as they have power and the net, I'll be OK. Free medical (by vets) too.

Mate if you can get it for the same price or close enough too, then go for it.

...and good luck with that 'selling your body' thing too mate, I've heard those dubbo lasses take their pound of flesh.


3 months flat is a little harsh and I have my own view of "out dated" ..... so 3 months, is roughly right but not very practicable.


Well then lets replace outdated with superseeded, for instance Intel are already up to their 3rd 'generation' of their Core 2 Duo's in under 12 months.